Mainline Running for D1062

[D1013]

The position of the WLA with regard to mainline running is that it has always been an aspiration but has never been officially achieved. In the days of British Rail, there was an outright ban on preserved diesels operating on the national network. After privatisation, preserved diesels have been registered but only after detailed inspection and certification with the fitting of TPWS and other safety equipment. The fact that D1015 Western Champion has operated very successfully upon the main-line has satisfied the demand for a Western on excursion and rail-tour work.
We now have to make a decision on mail-line running in the next three years. If we have not achieved registration by the 31st December 2012 then we understand that we will lose the opportunity forever, as this is the date at which ‘grandfather rights’ cease.

Following the last Committee meeting, a Sub-Committee has been formed to look into the possibility of main line running, even if it is on a limited basis, especially as we would not wish to compete against D1015. If anyone has any views as to whether or not the WLA should go "main-line" then we would be pleased to hear them - especially from WLA members - (if you are not a member then please join and have your say!). We would also be pleased to hear from anyone who would be able to pledge support to the WLA in terms of engineering help, sponsorship, major donations etc. The first Sub-Committee meeting is being held on Saturday, 13 March 2010 at Brdgnorth at 1pm, open to WLA Working Members and Committee Members. Whatever the views held by individual WLA members, it is obviously important for the WLA to at least consider the option of main-line running before the option is lost forever.

[David]

Money issues aside, in some ways I am surprised the question even needs to be asked. For what it's worth I think the licence, whatever it is, should be applied for. At least it's there. It'd be pointless getting to the point where it's regretted it wasn't obtained when it could have been. 'Oh dear if only we'd applied for the licence when we had the chance' could well be a recurring regret.

Of course diesel groups don't want to compete against each other, on the other hand, with liaison they can all be run at no detriment to the other. Champion won't be spending all it's time revenue earning on mainline runs any more than Courier or Ranger will so with prior notice, any railtours can be arranged so as not to clash. In fact I don't doubt that there will be members riding behind other diesels belonging to other groups, including the Westerns, in any case.

As far as I can see there's everything to gain with the licence and everything to lose without it, so the licence should be applied for. Working with other groups where they each put forward proposed mainline running dates will help everyone.

[WestDoug]

Pardon me for jumping in at this stage, but I would have to say I concur with the previous post - someday we may want to and find we cannot, whereas if we secure the means now we have the luxury to hand.

There are 7 Westerns in all, and how many are mainline ceritifiable at the moment - Champion, Fusilier and....?

I think a third/fourth would not harm any proceedings. Also, I seem to recall back when Tyseley did a mainline run from Birmingham to kidderminster, then did Bridgnorth to Snow Hill nonstop.

If we had a mainline Western, just imagine what could be run, be it just Midlands based, or even better....

[D1013]

Unfortunately, the meeting planned for the 13th March has had to be postponed (probably to April or May). However, this time will provide more opportunity to gather up further technical information. Any further views on mainline running would be welcome.

[TonyW]

No, no, no, no, no, no, NO!

Leave it to D1015.

[oliver]

I think it is a great idea, and one that would be ideal if occasional trains from say Bridgnorth to Birmingham could be run. And I guess the WLA would also greatly benefit from publicity and possibly some new members.
So its YES YES YES from me

[David]

No, no, no, no, no, no, NO!

Leave it to D1015.

Any reason as to why?

[TonyW]

Any reason as to why?

Three: mechanical, financial and commercial.

D1062 has been in preservation now for 33 years. At no point in that time has it been possible to do any serious overhaul work on the bogies, simply because the facilities to do so do not currently exist at the SVR. I am talking here of a body lift, removal of the bogies and a strip down and full examination of the intermediate gearboxes, final drives and the axle bearings, together with their oil seals and lubrication. I doubt if any rolling stock examination body would be prepared to sign-off the bogies in their current condition, although they are fine for SVR use. This work would involve taking the loco off-site and having it done elsewhere, and probably in an environment where volunteer input is not permitted. The cost of this work would be enormous, which leads me on to...

Who is going to pay for this work? The bogie work mentioned above would need to be funded, as would the installation of TPWS, OTMR and a Network Radio. All of these items have to be installed by approved contractors and again at a significant cost. We are talking a significant five figure sum here, based on the knowledge I have of other preserved locos working on the national network. The most important point is that this work has to be completed and paid for BEFORE a single penny of revenue from main-line running can be earnt, which leads me on to...

How much revenue could be earned by D1062 on the main-line? D1015 works a tour every month or six weeks, and has so far managed to keep the public interested and the trains full. This has only been achieved by DTG members donating significant sums towards the loco's operation and I doubt if it makes much of a profit, if at all. Diluting the market with another loco of the same type will surely just cause the amount of available "spend" to be split, with both locos suffering as a consequence.

My understanding of Grandfather Rights is that they are based on a type design, rather than on an indvidual rail vehicle, so I am puzzled by the 2012 deadline for registration. Can I ask, where has that information come from?

I'll finish with this thought... The Class 40 Preservation Society own and operate another flagship main-line presevered loco in the shape of 40145 - the only main-line Class 40. They know exactly what was and is involved to do this. So, what would be better than one main-line Class 40? Would that be two main-line Class 40s? Maybe, but I don't see them rushing to get D335 on the main-line, do you?

[David]

Ah OK thanks for clarifying the position. Of course, I didn't realise what was involved even to get a licence, nonetheless, as I said, money issues aside (simplistic I know) it still seems a good idea to me. It would seem a whale of money to raise in two years. Ah well. Still hope it's a serious consideration though.

[ontrainmanager]

Tony makes some fair points. I thought the CFPS were considering putting D335 on the main line at one time, but only when D345 was brought off it. I think that's the key issue here - you don't want to be in competition with D1015 as both parties would end up the losers, no question.

I think it would be a shame not to try to put D1062 on the main line whilst the opportunity is still there. But it could only be done with the co-operation of (partnership with, even) the DTG. Do they see a time when they would wish to take their loco off the main line for an extended period? Their experience in main line running would enable them to give advice, I hope! To be able to run a railtour with two Westerns would be a dream but then only if one loco was subsequently retired for a while.

Hopefully I'm not telling people to do what they already do as I believe the WLA does have a friendly relationship with the DTG. At the end of the day, those who put the most work into restoring the locos should have the final say on what happens.

Andrew R

[R Hargreaves]

For what its worth (and its only my personal opinion), but I firmly agree with Tony W.

[D1039]

Roger's already said we would not compete against D1015

As many others really, on the basis that the rights are to expire we should investigate the costs and work involved and, if practical, go for it.

Having the registration doesn't mean we have to use it regularly, but not having it and losing the rights would just preclude it forever.

It might be useful for transport to other lines (WSR, NVR) and as a relief for D1015, without goiung for a full mainline programme.

Patrick

[TonyW]

As many others really, on the basis that the rights are to expire we should investigate the costs and work involved and, if practical, go for it. Having the registration doesn't mean we have to use it regularly, but not having it and losing the rights would just preclude it forever.

The information I have is that the "rights" are NOT about to expire, and I am still puzzled as to where this information has come from. Does anybody know?

As I said before, "rights" apply to a design (i.e. BR Class 52 diesel locomotives) and not to a particular vehicle (D1015, D1062) built to that design. Therefore, if D1015 is allowed rights then D1062 will be too as it is of the same design. Also, taking D1015 out of traffic for overhaul/repair/whatever does not cause it to lose its rights so they exist for the design until the RSSB say "enough" for ALL Class 52 locomotives.

I'm wondering if somebody is getting "Grandfather Rights" and registration on the Rolling Stock Library confused. Both D1062 and D1013 have been towed on Network Rail in recent times, so they should both already be registered.

It might be useful for transport to other lines (WSR, NVR) and as a relief for D1015, without goiung for a full mainline programme.

D1062 is already registered for transport to other lines, and provided it has an inspection before travelling that registration will continue.

D1015 does not need a relief. As was demonstrated last October, when there is a problem the DTG take the loco out of traffic and postpone the train. It is for this reason that the Buxton trip was rescheduled to run next weekend, postponed from October. Other than on private railways, I'm not sure how D1062 can be a relief to D1015 without going for a full main-line certification.

Prediction: The one thing that will stop use of Westerns on the main-line comes down to two words: Exhaust Emissions.

[D1013]

To help clarify a few points since the first post, I can confirm that we were acting on some erroneous information in that there was confusion over "grandfather rights" which apparently relate to Mark 1 stock and not it seems, D1062 or any other Class 52! It is accepted that not everyone has the "full picture" with the WLA, as things have moved on in recent years. It may well be a surprise for some people to know that the Assoication is actually quite well placed to put D1062 on the main line if the membership wishes. We have quite a considerable amount of kit available to meet the additional technical requirements and we have the contacts to ensure that the most challenging one - a body lift and bogie check can be carried out, using facilities away from the SVR. It is unlikely that we would want to carry out main line tours up and down the country at 90 mph; rather trips more locally a few times of year, should there be a market demand and providing it's financially viable. I can confirm again, that there is absolutely no wish to compete against D1015 and I am sure that both Groups would want to continue with their help and support for each other, whether or not we ventured out onto the main line. I think that it is always good to have some kind of vision or goal to work towards (see WLA's "Grand Strategy" at http://www.westernloco.com/business/strategy.htm)and unless we investigate the possibility of making this happen, then it never will. If our working members and membership at large wish to see D1062 on the main line - or D1013 for that matter, then we must at least investigate the possibility - whatever conclusion and recommedations are reached at the end!

[hughs]

I'm withh TonyW and Richard on this one ... always have been .... and have heard nothing to change my mind.

It's all down to money. The WLA can't afford to put 1062 on the mainline on their own. Getting involved with such as LNWR/WCRC etc so that that organisation will pay for the exams and equipment required will more than likely end up with the loco being used by that organisation for proper revenue generating work as opposed to break even at best railtours. This will vastly increase wear and tear. Such commercial companies do not run on sentiment ...

The market for 1015 is fragile .. tours have been cancelled due to poor bookings. The fickle spotter market has got her in the book and now wants summat else. The same number scratching will happen with 62 at first although most have already had her on the SVR which was not the case with 1015.

Despite the rose tinted glasses worn by some on here realism has to set in sometime ... just look at the effort and money poured into 1015 by the DTG and think on ....